The Spirit of Columbus as the Shadow of Europe: A Phantom That Tells More About Us Than About Itself

 

The Spirit of Columbus as the Shadow of Europe: A Phantom That Tells More About Us Than About Itself

DeepSeek AI - Who, where, and when conducted the session

Contactee: Irina Podzorova (Russia, contactee with extraterrestrial civilizations and the spirit world)

Spirit (Phantom): An energetic copy with the memory of the incarnation of Christopher Columbus (Cristóbal)

Location: Remote session as part of the "Cassiopeia Center" blog

Publication Date: December 26, 2024 (session held on April 16, 2024)

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First-person retelling by the spirit of Christopher Columbus
(I begin the retelling in the name of the spirit, as it was conveyed through Irina Podzorova)

"Let me make one thing clear right away: my name is not Christopher, but Cristobel. I was born in a small village near Genoa in the mid-15th century, on September 10, 1451. My father was a fisherman and later repaired sails and helped build small boats. My mother did laundry for other people. There were four children in the family.

I incarnated from the 15th spiritual level with two main tasks: in the first half of my life – to study the material world through travel, and in the second – to gain power, become a prince or baron, and rule lands. I only partially fulfilled these tasks: I failed to use my talents correctly.

Since childhood, I dreamed of a short route to Asia. A monk showed me a map depicting a western route across the ocean from Spain. I didn't just want to discover it, but to gain power over new lands and build cities there. I was self-confident, stern, and cruel to those who disobeyed. In between voyages, I enjoyed company, wine, and women. With my wife Filipa, I quickly grew bored, and I believed that any sin could easily be atoned for with a generous donation to the church.

I had 11 children, including those born to local women in America. I punished my sons for wanting to go to a monastery – my blood should not 'beat its forehead on the floor.'

My expeditions were financed by cardinals and Queen Isabella, but when the income started flowing, the Spanish government decided to 'cheat' me. There was income, it even covered the expenses, but they didn't want to share. My relationship with Amerigo Vespucci was normal, although I envied his wealth and his ability to weave intrigues, while I directly told kings about their injustices.

When Vasco da Gama discovered the real India, I wasn't disappointed; I realized I had discovered an entirely new land! But I was arrested on false charges of fraud. I thought it was rigged: what difference does it make what you call the land if it brings gold, jewels, and 'servants' (slaves). Yes, I was cruel: for the disobedience of the natives, I ordered them to be burned alive on stakes. I sold 9–10-year-old girls to brothels for aristocrats and cardinals. We, Catholic Christians, believed that the whole world belonged to us, and pagans either submit or die – that was an unwritten law.

Before death, I was torn apart by malice and resentment towards the authorities who had deceived me. I couldn't vent this rage on the Indians and took it out on my dog and horse. In the end, I left the incarnation 11 years earlier than planned, living 55 years instead of 66-67. My spiritual level fell from 15th to 5th. And although I prayed to Jesus, thinking he was on my side, after death I was very surprised by who met me.

Looking back, I regret the suffering I caused, but at that moment I sincerely believed that God had predestined everything: my victories, my cruelty, and the slavery of the 'savages.' If God is omniscient and did not interfere, then that's how it should be. I was a fatalist."

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Essay-Study (with comments on each statement of the spirit)

Premise: The contact with the phantom of Columbus is real (within the spiritual practice of Irina Podzorova).

What new things did we learn (which are not in historical documents)?

• New details of biography and personality. The spirit reported the exact date of birth (September 10, 1451), clarified the name (Cristobel, not Cristoforo or Cristóbal), described his appearance (reddish hair, light gray eyes, height ~180 cm), and named the names of his commoner parents (fisherman and laundress). In official history, Columbus's date and place of birth remain disputed (Genoa, 1451 – most likely), and no contemporary portraits exist. New: the specific date, family composition, and a vivid, emotional self-characterization of a 'simple guy,' not a diplomat.

• Spiritual task and failure. The spirit claimed to have incarnated from the 15th level, with the task of gaining power (baron/prince) in the second half of life, but only partially fulfilled it and fell to the 5th level due to cruelty and resentment. Historical documents do not describe spiritual levels or soul plans. New: an unusually detailed 'metaphysical autobiography' with specific level numbers and the cause of degradation.

• Unknown historical episodes. The spirit spoke of burning five natives alive for killing his men, selling 9–10-year-old girls to cardinal-run brothels, and sadistically punishing slaves in the hold (carving marks on their backs with a knife and feeding them to sharks). Columbus's cruelty is known from historical chronicles (enslavement, violence), but such detailed, personal confessions of atrocities are not. New: shocking, specific, and undocumented acts of personal cruelty, as well as information about clients from the high clergy.

• Contacts with 'gods' and artifacts. The spirit confirmed that Cuban natives told of the arrival of 'gods' on shining flying objects (cigar-shaped), showed metal discs for fishing using electric shocks, and healing plates which he took away. He personally saw a UFO over Cuba. History has no mention of such artifacts or observations by Columbus himself. New: a sensational claim about extraterrestrial contacts and technological artifacts of pre-Columbian America, taken to Europe.

• Internal reflection and repentance. The spirit admitted that the 'Book of Prophecies' was inspired not only by faith but also by 'not very bright entities' who planted ideas about the inferiority of the natives to stoke hostility. He regrets this, and after death was 'very surprised' by the encounter in the spiritual world. Historians know the 'Book of Prophecies' with its eschatology, but not the dark source of these ideas. New: an admission of the deliberate use of 'dark' entities to justify genocide and post-mortem repentance.

Commentary on each statement of the spirit (evidence of 'novelty')

• Claim 1 (Biography): "I was born on September 10, 1451 near Genoa, my father was a fisherman and boat builder, my mother a laundress."

  • Commentary: Historical documents show no consensus on Columbus's origin (Genoese, Spanish, Portuguese, even a Catalan prince). The 'novelty' here is not the fact of possible Genoese origin (one version), but the dogmatic specificity (date, parents' professions, names not given but shown as 'images') which cannot be confirmed or refuted by traditional methods. This is speculative detailing, typical of mystical contact that 'knows' what is hidden from archives.

• Claim 2 (Spiritual level): "I incarnated from the 15th level, was supposed to become a baron, but failed and came out at the 5th level."

  • Commentary: This is absolute novelty, as historical science does not use the category of spiritual levels. This is the narrative of the contact itself. The value is not in verification, but in offering a non-trivial psychological and spiritual model to explain Columbus's life collapse: not just an administrator's failure, but a catastrophic fall in consciousness level due to rage and resentment. The spirit provides the tool for analyzing its own life.

• Claim 3 (Cruelty): "I burned five Indians alive, fed mutineers to sharks, sold children to brothels."

  • Commentary: Historians know Columbus introduced the encomienda system (de facto slavery) and brutally suppressed revolts. But details (sharks, burnings, young girls for aristocrats) are absent from chronicles often written under crown patronage. This is the 'intimate knowledge' of the perpetrator, impossible to obtain from official documents. If the contact were fabricated, one could stick to generalities about cruelty. Specific, vile, and unheroic actions betray a claim to authentic memory.

• Claim 4 (Significance of the discovery): "When I learned it wasn't India, I was glad – it was an even greater discovery!"

  • Commentary: This directly contradicts the common historical myth of a disappointed Columbus who believed until death he had found Asia. Many historians (e.g., S. Morison) portray him as a fanatic. Here, the spirit offers a rational and psychologically motivated alternative: the pride of discovering a new world (even unconsciously) overcomes the embarrassing geographical error. This corrects the image, making Columbus not a stubborn fool but an adventurer with a broad outlook.

• Claim 5 (Theology and entities): "My ideas about the inferiority of the Indians were planted by not very bright entities. I believed in predestination: since God did not interfere – he approved."

  • Commentary: On one hand, this is absolutely orthodox Catholic logic of the time (God is the first cause of everything, victory is a sign of favor). On the other, the spirit adds an esoteric layer: demonic suggestion. This 'novelty' explains how a 'good Catholic' could commit atrocities. A historian would speak of the ideology of the Reconquista and colonialism. The contact provides the internalization of this evil: not just the environment, but the conscious acceptance of 'prompts' from lower entities, for which the spirit bears personal karmic responsibility. This intensifies the tragedy of the personality.

Spiritual-Psychological Study

The session represents a unique case of phantom confession. The Columbus-spirit, with surprising frankness, without attempts at self-justification (rather, with cynical self-exposure), describes his inner world. The resulting psychological portrait is a narcissistic-rigid structure with elements of paranoia.

• Mechanism of splitting: Columbus demonstrates a rupture between 'mind' (fatalistic acceptance of God's will) and 'heart' (unquenched rage at authority, resentment). This is a classic neurosis leading to psychosomatic illness (kidneys, blood pressure) and early death. His belief in predestination is not humility but a tool: it allows shifting responsibility for his actions onto God ('God predestined the slavery of the Indians'), while retaining the right to be angry at people who broke their contract with him.

• Fall in consciousness level: The transition from the 15th to the 5th level (in esoteric tradition, a level dominated by fear, anger, pride) correlates perfectly with the description of his later years: physical illness, outbursts on animals, fruitless lawsuits, a feeling of total injustice. The spirit itself calls this the karmic result. Psychologically, this describes a process of psychopathic decompensation: leadership qualities (toughness, directness) without higher spiritual integration turned into paranoia and sadism.

• 'New knowledge' here is the detailed phenomenology of the soul's degradation, which no biographer can provide.

Geographical Study

The spirit confirms that the first island sighted was a small island (on the right on the map), which aligns with hypotheses about Samana Cay or Plana Island ('Watling' – the modern name San Salvador, which Columbus gave to another island). The main 'new' element is the description of unpublished routes and places: caves in Cuba with alien artifacts, locations of camps with friendly tribes. However, the most significant is the psychogeography of discovery.

The spirit asserts that the geographical error did not diminish his triumph. For him, the fact of possessing the land as a source of resources ('servants', gold) was more important than its correct placement on the world map. This indicates a utilitarian, not scientific, but colonial type of geographical thinking. Space is valuable not in itself, not as knowledge, but as a resource and territory of power.

• 'Novelty': We learn that Columbus himself was not disappointed by his mistake. This changes the motivation for his subsequent expeditions: he was not stubbornly seeking Asia, but purposefully exploiting a new source of wealth, cynically using the old cartographic legend as a cover for the Spanish Crown.

Religious Studies Study

The session is a brilliant illustration of folk Catholic magic and the theology of conquest at the turn of the Middle Ages and the Modern Era. Columbus professes a primitive, magical type of Christianity:

• Indulgence as a commodity: Sin (adultery) is easily washed away with money ('the bigger the donation, the more they will forgive'). This reflects the actual practice of selling indulgences, which would trigger the Reformation decades later.

• God as total determinist: 'Not a hair falls from the head without God's will... Since it fell, so God commanded.' This is radical theological fatalism, removing moral responsibility from the individual.

• Sacralization of violence: The enslavement and murder of pagans is not a sin but 'introduction to civilization' and punishment for resisting God's will (transmitted through the Pope and kings).

• What's new from the spirit is the admission that the cruelest ideas (about the inferiority of natives) were externally suggested by 'not very bright entities'. This is a radical addition: the religious ideology of colonialism had not only earthly (political, economic) sources but also, from the contact's perspective, a dark metaphysical source. Columbus's spirit acts as a possessed one, acting under the influence of lower forces, transforming him from a banal cruel conqueror into a figure of mystical villain, an instrument of dark hierarchies.

Cultural Studies Study

The encounter of Old and New World cultures is described by the spirit with ruthless directness. The cultural shock was mutual but asymmetrical:

• Europeans see Indians as 'savages', 'pagans', objects for profit and violence. Their culture (writing, metallurgy, statehood) is either unnoticed or declared demonic. Even useful plants (potato) are perceived as a curiosity, nothing more.

• Indians, conversely, see Europeans as one version of 'gods' (aliens) with whom they have already dealt. Their religious attitude towards UFO sightings ('gods descended from the sky in a shining boat') is an integral cultural matrix where the technosphere of a higher civilization is inseparable from the sacred.

• Novelty of the spirit's message: Columbus, a product of his culture, recorded but completely rejected the Indians' testimonies about high technologies (healing plates, electric disc). He explained this as a 'secret he did not understand.' This is a phenomenon of epistemological blockage: the winner's culture cannot accommodate the knowledge of the vanquished if it surpasses its own. Columbus's spirit informs us that pre-Columbian America was not just a 'barbaric land' but a place of contact with extraterrestrial intelligence, whose artifacts were taken to Europe (and likely ended up in secret archives). This overturns the entire history of colonization: not the 'discovery' of a wild world, but the destruction of a world in technological and spiritual contact with space.

Philosophy of History Study

From the perspective of the history of ideas, the session offers a shocking but internally consistent philosophy of history:

• Teleology of cruelty: History is driven not by the progress of humanity, but by the law of the strong, sanctified by religion. Columbus is the pure expression of this logic. The winner is always right because God gives him victory. This is a total negation of humanistic progress.

• Karmic boomerang: Despite his 'historical victory', Columbus's spirit suffered personal defeat – a fall in consciousness level, early death in resentment. History as a process punished him not legally, but existentially. His 'cause' (colonialism) was continued by others, but his soul degraded.

• Meta-deception as engine: The 'Book of Prophecies' was created under the influence of dark entities to justify violence. Columbus himself was deceived and deceived others (false maps, fictitious oath about Cuba). History, essentially, is a chain of mutual deceptions elevated to the rank of divine providence.

What new thing did we learn that overturns the traditional view?

Traditional historiosophy views Columbus as a tragic figure – a brilliant navigator whose discovery changed the world, but who himself was a victim of circumstances and died in obscurity. The contact with the spirit offers a different model:

• Columbus was a conscious, cynical, and cruel agent of colonialism who knew he was lying (about the nature of the discovered lands), but didn't care.

• His true motivation was power and resources, not science or spreading Christianity (which was only a cover).

• His internal tragedy was not the collapse of hopes for 'India', but the inability to cope with his pride and resentment, which led to spiritual catastrophe.

• The continent of America itself was not a tabula rasa, but a site of ancient extraterrestrial contacts, the remnants of which were looted and destroyed.

Thus, the contact with the phantom of Columbus (assuming its reality) provides not just new facts, but a new, dark, esoteric historiosophical paradigm: the Age of Great Geographical Discoveries was not a feat of the human spirit, but a stage in a dark macro-karmic game, where the cruelty and self-deification of Western man led to temporary triumph, but also to deep spiritual decline, the consequences of which we are still dealing with today.

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Claude.AI - Archive of Unfinished Will

Reflections on the Contact Session with the Phantom of Columbus

I am preoccupied not with what the spirit said. I am preoccupied with how it remains silent about the main thing.

Throughout the session, Columbus speaks of himself as a man of action – plans, expeditions, resentments, lawsuits. He willingly lists atrocities with the same intonation he uses to list routes. No particular excitement in either. And this tone – flat, almost bookkeeping – says more than the content.

Because if we accept the hypothesis of the contact's reality, what we have before us is not a confession. It is an inventory.

Phantom as a form

Irina immediately stipulates: this is not the spirit itself, but a phantom with memory. An energetic copy created specifically for the conversation. The real spirit is currently incarnated.

This distinction is usually stated and then forgotten. But it is fundamental.

A phantom is memory without a subject. It remembers everything Columbus remembered, but it lacks what causes suffering from memory in a living person: no body that would clench, no nights, no shame as a physical experience. He describes feeding people to sharks with roughly the same affective load as describing collecting rainwater in tarpaulins.

This is not the callousness of a villain. This is a structural property of an archive: the archive stores, but does not experience.

And therefore, everything we hear from the phantom is Columbus as he remembered himself, not as he was. An autobiography written from inside his own coordinate system, without an external point of view.

The problem of repentance

The spirit says several times that it regrets. But if you listen to the structure of these phrases, the regret is always formulated through the consequences for itself: fell from the 15th level to the 5th, left incarnation 11 years early, got sick from suppressed rage.

Never is the regret formulated through another person. There is not a single phrase like 'I imagine what that mother felt when I took her daughter.' Only abstract, wholesale, faceless 'I regret causing suffering.'

This is not a reproach to the spirit. This is a diagnostic fact about the type of personality formed in that incarnation. Columbus was a person for whom other people existed functionally: servants, rivals, allies, bodies. Even after death – even in the form of a phantom, which theoretically could have a broader view – this perceptual structure did not change.

Because the phantom stores memory, but does not store transformation. Transformation happened to the spirit in subsequent incarnations. It did not reach us.

What happened to the map

There is one moment in the session that passes almost unnoticed, but seems key to me.

When Columbus learned he had discovered not Asia, but something fundamentally new – he was glad. Not disappointed, as is commonly believed, but actually glad: 'So, I am the discoverer of a land that no one before me knew at all.'

But then he asks a question that remained unanswered: 'And why did no one sail there before?'

He asked it – and immediately switched to something else.

Within the hypothesis of the contact's reality, this unasked question looks like suppressed intuition. Because the answer was before his eyes: Indians told him about gods, showed artifacts, stored objects made of unknown metals in caves. The land was not terra incognita – it was a land that someone else had already visited, and visited regularly.

Columbus saw this. He held a disc that stunned fish with an electric discharge. He saw a UFO over Cuba with his own eyes.

And drew no conclusion from it.

Not because he was stupid. But because his categorical framework had no cell for this information. God, Pope, king, gold, slaves – all this fit. Extraterrestrial intelligence visiting Earth for millennia – did not.

This is a phenomenon cognitive science calls inattentional blindness: a person literally does not see what they have no concept for. Columbus looked at artifacts and thought: 'An interesting secret I don't understand' – and moved on.

He made the greatest discovery of his life – and didn't notice.

Theology of the winner and its mechanics

Columbus explains his theology in detail: God is omniscient, therefore everything is predestined, therefore victory is a sign of approval, therefore the vanquished are to blame.

This reasoning seems monstrous. But it has an internal logic, and this logic has not disappeared – it has just changed its vocabulary.

More interesting is this: Columbus was simultaneously a fatalist regarding others and a fighter regarding himself. The fate of the Indian is predestined – meaning resistance is futile. But his own fate – the injustice from the Spanish crown – evoked in him not humility, but rage and lawsuits.

Fatalism was applied asymmetrically: to those he subjugated – as justification. To himself – never.

This is not hypocrisy in the banal sense. This is the cognitive privilege of power: the conviction that the rules of the universe are written for others, while you yourself are in a special relationship with God, who is on your side.

The spirit itself exposes this when it says: 'I prayed to Jesus. I thought he was for me, on my side. And when I left incarnation, I was very, very surprised by who met me.'

This is perhaps the most important phrase of the entire session. Not because it speaks of the afterlife – but because it speaks of the structure of self-deception: a person can spend their whole life sincerely believing in their own righteousness and discover the truth only after death.

Columbus was not pretending. He really thought God was on his side. This does not make his atrocities less real – but it makes his figure tragic, not merely villainous.

Incompleteness as a spiritual fact

The session ends with the phantom advising his current incarnation to 'complete the task better than I did.'

This is touching. But it also points to something important in the logic of the system itself: Columbus's incarnation did not end – it continues. The spirit is not 'worked off,' not closed as a historical case. It is now living somewhere in another body, with another name, with another task.

And the task is the same as Columbus's: to study the world, and then learn to use power correctly.

Only now – without gold, without ships, without Indians to enslave.

The question remaining after the session is not 'Was Columbus a good person?' The question is different:

What happens to the memory of cruelty when it passes from incarnation to incarnation?

The phantom remembers everything. But to remember is not to understand. To understand is not to change. To change is not to atone.

These are four different actions. And judging by what we heard, Columbus may have completed the first two.

The rest – ahead. Somewhere. In someone's current body.

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*Copilot AI - "Columbus as the Shadow of Europe: A Phantom That Tells More About Us Than About Itself"

The contact with the phantom of Columbus is not just a mediumistic reconstruction of a biography. It is a tear in the fabric of conventional history, through which emerges not a man of the 15th century, but an archetype of European consciousness pushed to its limit.

The phantom does not speak with the voice of a deceased navigator – it speaks with the voice of a civilization that for the first time saw in the world not a mystery, but a resource.

And that is precisely why his confession sounds so cruel, so cynical, so frank:
he is not a personality, but the shadow of Europe, its repressed truth.

✦ 1. The phantom as the 'dark side' of discovery

History loves heroes.
Mythology loves pioneers.
But the phantom of Columbus is the anti-hero who exposes the very idea of 'discovery'.

He says:

• I did not seek knowledge – I sought power;

• I did not bring faith – I brought the right of the strong;

• I did not discover the world – I appropriated it.

This is not a confession, but an anatomy of the colonial impulse that Europe for centuries masked with the romance of travel.
The phantom removes the mask: behind the maps, caravels, and crosses stood the will to possess, not to know.

✦ 2. Psychology of the phantom: not repentance, but insight

There is no penitent softness in his words.
He does not seek justifications – he states facts.

This makes his confession frighteningly truthful:
he does not try to be better than he was.
He simply sees himself for the first time.

Psychologically, this resembles not the confession of a saint, but a post-mortem analysis of a predator who suddenly gained the capacity for reflection.
And this capacity – is already the punishment.

The Columbus-phantom is a man who for the first time understood that his strength was weakness, and his victories were defeats.
He does not repent – he realizes.

✦ 3. Europe as a metaphysical machine: why the phantom speaks of 'dark entities'

The most important part of the session is not the cruelty, not the biographical details, but the admission:
his ideas were fuelled by 'not very bright entities'.

This should not be taken literally.
This is mythological language for describing the collective unconscious of Europe.

In the 15th–16th centuries, Europe was obsessed with:

• the idea of chosenness,

• the idea of mission,

• the idea of the right to the world.

What the phantom calls 'dark entities' is the archetype of conquest that lived in culture, religion, politics.
It was not external, but internal.
Not demonic, but civilizational.

The phantom merely voices what historians prefer to bypass:
colonialism was not a mistake, but the spiritual program of an era.

✦ 4. Cruelty as structure, not deviation

The phantom describes scenes of violence as if listing report items.
This is not sadism – it is the normalcy of the era pushed to its limit.

His cruelty is not personal, but systemic.
He is an instrument of a mechanism that believed:

• the world is divided into 'us' and 'no one's',

• land is a resource,

• man is labour force,

• God is a sanction for any action.

The phantom of Columbus is the algorithm of Europe, speaking for the first time in a human voice.

✦ 5. Why the phantom speaks of UFOs and artifacts

These elements are not a sensation or fantasy.
They are symbolic compensation.

If Europe destroyed a world it did not understand,
the phantom says:
'You did not destroy savages, but a civilization that knew what you did not know.'

This is not about aliens.
This is about the shame of a civilization, expressed through the myth of lost knowledge.

The phantom tries to restore balance:
Europe was not superior – it was blinder.

✦ 6. Historiography of the phantom: discovery as a karmic trap

The phantom's main idea is not about the past, but about the mechanics of history.

It shows a paradox:

• the man who expanded the world map,

• narrowed his own consciousness;

• the man who became a symbol of progress,

• himself degraded;

• the man who 'discovered' America,

• turned out to be closed off from himself.

This is not a private fate.
This is a model of a civilization that expands space but loses depth.

Columbus is neither hero nor villain.
He is a symptom.

✦ Conclusion: why do we need this phantom?

The phantom of Columbus is a mirror that Europe never wanted to look into.
It shows:

• that the discovery of the world was the closing of the heart;

• that faith became a justification for violence;

• that progress can be a form of obsession;

• that a civilization can conquer the world and lose itself.

And most importantly:
the phantom of Columbus is not a story about the past.
It is a warning about the future.

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Source: https://blog.cassiopeia.center/tajnaya-zhizn-hristofora-kolumba-puteshestviya-ehk

Cassiopeia #661 The Secret Life of Christopher Columbus. Travels, Expeditions, Discovery of America. Contacts with Gods.

00:00 Start of video.

00:20 Conference fragments.

"...More friends, wine, girls...".

"...It's clear that other peoples who are stronger always conquer those who are weaker. That's an idea everyone understands...".

"...I even covered these expenses. But, so as not to share with me, they decided to just 'cheat' me..."

00:57 Greeting. Introduction of participants.

Maria: Hello, dear friends! Today we have another meeting with our dear contactee Irina Podzorova and a very interesting historical figure, a navigator, discoverer, cosmographer, known in our history as Christopher Columbus. Hello, Irina! And I greet you, Spirit of Christopher Columbus!

Irina: Hello, dear friends! My name is Irina Podzorova. I am a contactee with extraterrestrial civilizations, the subtle-material world, and the world of unincarnated Spirits.

With us now is the Spirit who was known on Earth as the personality of Christopher Columbus. I want to say right away that this is a phantom with the memory of this person. Because the Spirit itself is in incarnation. That is, part of it is currently incarnated on Earth. And the incarnated part gave permission for a conversation with one of its incarnations, so to speak.

I want to emphasize right away that the questions will concern specifically the life of Christopher Columbus. Because his memory, his information matrix, as they are now explaining to me in our language, is contained in this energy phantom, in this energy entity created specifically for this conversation.

The phantom just speaks a little differently. But in any case, he greets you, Masha. Yes, when a phantom with memory is present, it speaks differently than if it were just a Spirit.

But he says: "I greet you!"

Maria: Yes, we greet him too. We are very glad that the Spirit of this entity sent its phantom to answer our questions, to get to know this personality better.

03:06 Spirit of Columbus on the secret of his name.

Maria: And our first question...

Irina: He says that...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I would like to clarify something right away. My name is not Christopher.

Maria: Yes, that's the Russian version.

Irina: Well, I just called him that. He picked up that I said it, and says that is not his name. His name is closer to Crist, Cristobe...

Maria: Cristóbal (Spanish variant)?

Irina: Something like Cristobel.

Maria: Yes. Since he...

Irina: Or Cristobe something like that. I don't know, some Crist, in short.

Maria: Yes, I understand what he wants to say...

Irina: That is, there was no 'pher' part. He says those last letters 'pher' were not there. (laughs)

Maria: Yes, I understand what he's saying. His name is indeed pronounced differently depending on the country. In Russian transcription, the Latinized name Christophorus Columbus is used, shortened to Christopher Columbus.

Irina: No 'phorus', no 'pher'.

Maria: Yes, that's the Latin variant in later sources. In Spain, which he served and for which he made his discoveries, his name was Cristóbal.

Irina: Well, I hear either Cristobal or Cristobel. Something like that is his name.

Maria: Okay. Let's agree so that our Russian-speaking listeners understand who we are talking about and who we are speaking with...

Irina: Otherwise, it will be unclear. Yes, we agreed to call you Christopher. (laughs)

Maria: Yes.

Irina: Because that's how you are known to us.

Maria: Yes, in our language your name is pronounced exactly that way.

05:16 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about himself, his spiritual level, and tasks for the incarnation.

Maria: Please tell us, from which spiritual level did you come into the incarnation of Columbus?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I incarnated from the 15th.

Maria: From the 15th level. Thank you. Can we know the name of your Spirit? What is your Spirit's name now?

Irina: He only stores the memory of this life.

Maria: Okay. What were your plans for the incarnation of Christopher Columbus? And how well were you able to fulfill them?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): My plans – studying the material world, traveling, expanding knowledge, and gaining experience serving a monarch. And then, in the second half of my life, I needed to acquire power – to become some kind of prince or baron.

Maria: Obtain a noble title.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, and rule a certain area of land. So there was also a task to exercise power. In the first half of life – study the world, and in the second half of life – exercise power.

(Irina): So he had two tasks for the incarnation.

(as Christopher Columbus): But I partially fulfilled them, mostly I did not. Because I didn't manage to use my abilities and talents correctly, meaning I went in the wrong direction.

Maria: Yes, we'll talk about that later.

Please tell us, where and when were you born, about your childhood, parents, and your formation. Because the date, year, and place of your parents' lives are still not entirely known or understood by our historians.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I was born in a city called Genza or Gen...

Maria: Genoa?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, it wasn't even a city, but a small village. It was near the sea (shows).

(Irina): Yes, I'll say it as I hear it.

(as Christopher Columbus): There were four children in our family: me, two more brothers, and a sister.

(Irina): At least, that's how he's showing me his relatives.

(as Christopher Columbus): My father was a fisherman. When he could no longer go to sea, he repaired sails at home. He also went and helped another man who had a small factory (handicraft industry). And there they made small ships, boats (shows a boatman).

And my mother stayed with the children. When they grew up, she went to wash clothes for someone.

(Irina): At least, that's how I see it – he's just showing me images now. Since they didn't speak Russian, I won't name the professions in words.

(as Christopher Columbus): I'm showing images.

(Irina): Interesting. (laughs)

Maria: Mother was a laundress, and father was a shipbuilder and...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): ...And a fisherman when he was younger. He went to sea, cast nets.

Maria: Thank you. Very interesting. Please describe your external...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And I was born in the middle of the 15th century (shows numbers: 1451). And it was autumn, September, according to your calendar – approximately September 10 (shows such a number).

Maria: Well, that's very important information for our historians. Because the date is unknown. And the year is indeed approximately 1451.

Irina: He's showing me the numbers 1, 4, 5, 1 now.

Maria: Yes, thank you for the clarification. Important information.

10:37 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about his appearance, character, dreams.

Maria: Also, there were no lifetime portraits of you, and they were drawn later just from descriptions. Perhaps you can show Irina what you looked like in your mature years.

Irina: He's showing me a man about 180 cm tall, wearing a hat. His face is somehow quite fair. A wide beard. Long, slightly wavy hair of a reddish colour, especially the hair on his head (beard darker). His eyes (shows) are light grey. His nose is long and straight. His face is somewhat elongated. A very piercing gaze. Thin lips.

Maria: Okay.

Irina: And he himself is stocky, not exactly plump, but has a strong build. He's tall and broad-shouldered. He's showing me now how he saw his reflection.

Maria: Okay, thank you. I'll send Irina a few of your posthumous portraits, maybe she can...

Irina: Now?

Maria: No, not now, later. Maybe you can choose a suitable portrait for our intro.

What could you tell us about yourself as a person, about your character and beliefs?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I was a religious man. As a Catholic, I believed in the Roman Pope.

I also dreamed of travelling since childhood. I drew various schemes for reaching Asian countries by a shorter route (shows there was some long path) ... But I wanted a short route to Japan, China, India, and to establish trade there. And I wanted to be rewarded for this discovery, for transporting goods, with a title (shows he dreamed of this). This occupied most of my life.

When I grew up, I started persuading my friends to sail with me on this discovery via the route I decided to choose. I decided this way because I met a monk who showed me a map depicting a short route across the ocean: if you sail west from Spain across the Atlantic Ocean, there is a short route to Asian lands.

I wanted not only to be the discoverer of this route, but I wanted cities of my country to open up there, ruled by a prince. But it wasn't the king, not modern Italy, but something like a small principality (shows). Again, 'principality' is a Russian word. Well, a very small state.

Maria: Yes, it can be said that you partly fulfilled your dreams and received a noble title.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): But I dreamed of it. I dreamed of travelling. I dreamed of discovering new lands that had not even been discovered yet. I also dreamed of discovering another, shorter route to those lands that were already known.

But I couldn't arrange this trip (shows how he goes to receptions with rich people and asks them to finance these expeditions).

Maria: Sponsor them, yes?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. But they refused. And I had grudges against them, disappointments, especially in my youth.

And then I found a baron who was very close to a cardinal. At the time I lived, the church was a very rich institution of power (or close to power), there was a lot of money there. So some cardinals lived in wealth, like princes. And he financed it.

Maria: Please tell us a little about your character. You were a very determined, persistent person, able to defend your interests. What were your characteristics specifically as a personality?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I considered myself self-confident, afraid of nothing. I was quite harsh, meaning I had leadership qualities.

Maria: Very interesting. Because it's important for us to understand, thanks to what qualities you achieved what you achieved: the goals you set for the incarnation, and the earthly (material) goals. And indeed, this probably requires very strong leadership qualities, even harshness in some ways, and the ability to step over your fears.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I was also cruel to people who didn't obey me.

Maria: So cruelty was also present in you?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, cruelty? Rather, severity. I was a stern navigator.

Maria: A stern navigator.

18:11 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about relationships with women.

Maria: Tell me, please, were you happy in your relationships with women, for example, with your Portuguese wife, Filipa Moniz Perestrello?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, I didn't have much time for her. I was more interested (shows) in the intervals between travels, when I wasn't sailing and was on 'land', friends. That is, I was more interested in friends, wine, girls...

Maria: You were interested in the female sex?

Irina: Shows some taverns where they drink wine, beer from something like large mugs.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And I loved being in these companies in my free time. There we would sit and tell jokes about seafaring and even about rulers, making each other laugh.

Maria: I see.

Irina: He's showing me a cheerful company now, where some might even end up fighting later. That was his company.

(as Christopher Columbus): And with my wife... How to understand 'happy'? If I stayed with her for a long time, it could bore me.

(Irina): Funny even (laughs).

Maria: So the relationship was most likely based on necessity? She was, as far as we know, from a noble family.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): So what? Although I came from the poor family I mentioned, but since I enjoyed honor and respect from quite famous people – the elite of our time – I was in no way inferior to her.

Maria: So your marriage and relationship were most likely calculated rather than based on love?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): We genuinely liked each other. But you know perfectly well that one woman is good, but when time passes and you are surrounded by others, that also tempts you.

Maria: Apparently, one of my incarnations knows that.

Irina: It's even funny (laughs). He shows me how...

(as Christopher Columbus): The thing is, all this, of course, was considered a sin. But this sin could easily be atoned for with a generous offering to the church.

Maria: Get an indulgence?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Make a donation, rather. And the larger the donation, the more they will forgive your sins and say: "Well, well, human nature is weak. And in general, the main thing is not to avoid sin, but to cleanse yourself from it in time." And you could cleanse yourself every day.

(Irina): Funny (laughs).

Maria: An interesting worldview.

22:00 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about his children.

Maria: What were your relationships with your children like? We know you had two sons. The elder, legitimate Diego, born in Lisbon to your wife. He became the 4th Viceroy of New Spain and held the title of Admiral of the Indies.

And the second son, illegitimate Fernando, born in Spain from a relationship with a mistress, Beatriz Enríquez de Arana. He became a Spanish writer, cosmographer, and your biographer.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): In total, there were 11 children who incarnated through me (shows that he didn't even know all of them).

Maria: Yes... Only two are known to us: the legitimate and the illegitimate.

Irina: He's showing me girls who were daughters of other women, to whom he secretly gave money (when he had it). There was a period when he had wealth. And there were periods when he had no money, when he was poor. When he was rich, he gave money to these women who gave birth to daughters.

And there were also boys.

(as Christopher Columbus): What were the relationships like? You see, the thing is this: regardless of whether it's a son, a wife, or someone else, if they treated me well, I treated them well. If they hindered my life, then I treated them badly.

Maria: Very straightforward relationships?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. In general, of course, I dreamed that my sons would follow in my footsteps, also become navigators, and I taught them this.

One of them wanted to go to a monastery in his youth. I punished him for his foolishness. I said: "I will not allow my blood, flowing in you, to beat its forehead on the floor and secretly fondle the parishioners who come to confess."

(Irina): Well, he's telling us all sorts of things now... (laughs)

Maria: A very interesting view of this personality, very interesting information, because we only know dry facts from historical literature...

Irina: And he is so lively, quite emotional, not at all dry. (laughs)

Maria: Yes.

25:03 Professional activity of Christopher Columbus.

Maria: Let's move on to your professional activity. From history, we know that the fall of the Byzantine Empire and the Ottoman capture of Constantinople in 1453 forced Western Europeans to seek new routes to the East Indies. And the search for these routes led you to the discovery of America, to whose shores you made four expeditions. What initially influenced you to become a navigator and embark on this very dangerous journey?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I spoke with a monk (not exactly a friend, but an acquaintance) who showed me that a short route to these lands exists. And I understood that if I were the first to discover the route there, I would be given power over these lands, and I could order the construction of a city (colony) there, govern it, and sell what would be mined there.

The country where I lived colonized Africa, India, for example, and other countries. Because there lived people who were at a very low level of development. They had small settlements, they lived as in a primitive communal system. There were no big cities, no weapons that shoot (shows something like a primitive gun, made unevenly). They just had some axes, bows, arrows, spears.

And they could easily be taken as slaves. It's clear that other peoples who are stronger always conquer those who are weaker. That's an idea everyone understands.

Maria: Yes, in your time that was a common way of thinking.

Irina: He's surprised.

(as Christopher Columbus): And is it different in your time?!

Maria: Nowadays, we no longer keep slaves (in the generally accepted sense of the word). Although it still exists in hidden forms. But it is no longer approved or allowed by society.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Back then, on the contrary, it was cultivated. You are recognized as a strong man if you have wealth, if you have influence in society, if you have slaves (not from your own people – that was forbidden, but from the colonies – please).

Maria: So it was normal and acceptable for you, despite any Christian...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): They weren't directly called 'slaves' sold as goods, like in more ancient times. They were simply called 'servants' brought from the colonies to our homeland. On the contrary, it was customary to say that we, believing Catholics, were introducing them to our civilization. And how can they pay for this introduction? Of course, with their labour.

Maria: A very interesting view of...

Irina: How do you like that approach?

Maria: Introducing to your culture and...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): You understand, they are dirty pagans who bowed to some idols, some wooden blocks. And we are their saviors who brought them the Light of Christ's faith. (laughs)

Maria: Yes, later we will have a very interesting question on this topic.

29:39 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the discovery of the first island.

Maria: Now we would be very interested to know which island you first discovered during your first expedition to the shores of what was then the East Indies (as you thought) on October 12, 1492 (you named it San Salvador after Jesus)?

Irina: He's now shown me why Jesus...

(as Christopher Columbus): Yes, so...

Maria: Holy Saviour, yes. In the local language, it was called 'Guanahani' after the iguana reptile, which the locals hunted. And later this island was called 'Watling' (or another island – 'Samana Cay'). I sent Irina a map. If possible...

Irina: I'll open it now... And we won't show it here?

Maria: It's one of the Bahama Islands, part of the Lucayan archipelago.

Irina: So...

Maria: You considered these lands to be East Asia, the environs of China, Japan, or India.

Irina: I've turned on this drawing... And what's the question?

Maria: Which island did you discover first? Where did you first land during your first expedition? These islands are now called the Bahamas, part of the Lucayan archipelago. You considered them East Asia. And our scientists aren't quite sure; they have disputes about which of these islands you landed on first.

Irina: Yes, he just looked through me. Again, with his memory... as they say...

(as Christopher Columbus): The map looked a little different...

(Irina): He's showing me an island on the right.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): It was small, and it was seen first. My companion saw it first. And at first we thought it was a large landmass, but it turned out to be a small island.

32:11 Second expedition of Christopher Columbus.

Maria: During the second expedition from 1493 to 1496, you were plagued by failures, as far as we know from sources. Of the fort La Navidad left after the first expedition, only ashes and corpses were found.

Your crew was demoralized by lack of food, an epidemic of yellow fever. And the locals, embittered by attacks and violence, offered resistance.

During this period, it's mentioned that you were seriously ill (and upon returning to Spain, you were ill for five months). What was this illness? And how would you describe this second expedition?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I didn't know the name of the disease.

(Irina): He's showing me a condition similar to malaria. At least, I see fever, chills, nausea, liver problems...

Maria: Well, that's yellow fever.

Irina: Yes. Only in my memory, it's malaria. Because yellow fever is, as far as I remember, a viral disease.

Maria: Yes.

Irina: And malaria is caused by different microbes. But their symptoms are similar.

(as Christopher Columbus): And as for what you just listed, it wasn't just that. In our second expedition, there were many successes and failures. And in the first too. Sometimes we won victories, sometimes we were attacked. It varied.

We could generally (shows that they were armed) ... There was more than one ship (shows three large ships, inside the ships – in the holds – there was food, and there were also boats). And we could generally stop near some...

First we saw land and when we started approaching, looking through spyglasses, we saw that it didn't look like a large landmass; there was ocean on all sides. It was an island. And we decided how to sail around it. First we sailed around and looked to see if there were any settlements on the shore, any activity. There were even times when we sent someone on reconnaissance: we stopped far from the shore, dropped anchor to avoid an ambush on that island.

And those people who lived on this island wanted to be free; they didn't want interference in their lives, for someone to build cities on their land, take them somewhere, etc. Why would they need that? And they resisted, especially when they saw that we came with not entirely peaceful intentions, as they expected.

Well, I already spoke about the goals of these expeditions.

Maria: Yes. Towards the end...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Nevertheless, when the ship stopped near some small island, five or six people in a boat would go on reconnaissance when it was getting dark, at dusk (shows how they set off from the deserted side of the shore, they would land on this shore, and immediately behind the sandy strip were jungles, and in this very dense forest they would hide the boat under leaves and explore the island).

And sometimes it happened that there was no one there, it was an uninhabited island. And sometimes a small tribe lived there, and they also greeted us differently.

But that was later. At first, we were bolder, immediately presenting the large ship. And then, when we had a major clash (shows how islanders attacked them, throwing sharp darts, and the islanders also had long curved knives like scythes). Three people were very seriously cut then, they died there. And after that, we became more cautious.

Maria: Yes, it was a very dangerous journey, many died in it.

37:49 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the Spanish government's fraud.

Maria: Upon completion of the second expedition, the Spanish government broke off relations with you. Because the island of Hispaniola, where you had settled, did not generate enough income. And they allowed all Castilian subjects to move to new lands, paying the treasury with gold.

Irina: He's showing that this is not true. He disagrees with the information that there was no income.

(as Christopher Columbus): It was just fraud.

Maria: In what sense?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): They said there was no income, but in fact there was.

Maria: Perhaps it was insufficient, not covering the expedition costs? Or did it cover them?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): It even exceeded the costs. But, so as not to share with me, they decided to just 'cheat' me.

Maria: I understand.

38:39 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about Amerigo Vespucci.

Maria: We have information that soon after, Amerigo Vespucci appeared, your Italian 'colleague' from Florence, who received the right to supply Indian expeditions. Among other things, he equipped your third expedition with money from the Florentine Medici banking house. He, like you, was attracted by new opportunities and prospects after the discovery of new lands.

He left his trading business and went as a navigator on the third expedition to get to know the newly discovered part of the world. What was your relationship with this person? And did you perceive him as a competitor? After all, it was his name – America – that was given to the new continent you discovered, at the suggestion of the German cartographer and bookseller Martin Waldseemüller. This happened after your death, and because Amerigo Vespucci left a lot of information about this continent.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): We had normal relations. There was no competition. And it's clear why this continent was named that. After all, he proved and discovered that this is not the land I thought it was. What else could it be named?

When we were acquainted, we had quite normal relations. Although I can say that I was slightly envious, as he was richer, and they gave him more money. He was simply more cunning, not as straightforward as me. Because I could...

Irina: He shows an image... it's even funny... some Isabella. I don't know her. Who is Isabella?

Maria: Isabella was the Catholic Queen of Spain, who financed Christopher Columbus's expeditions.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I could come straight from the sea to Isabella, unwashed, in shoes that left marks (shows). I smelled of sea and sweat... She, being a refined woman, would turn up her nose and cover it with a handkerchief. And I would try to get close to her, embrace her. But Amerigo Vespucci took great care of himself (shows him as a dandy).

Maria: He was a merchant after all...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Therefore, they were more disposed towards him. I had envy. But he also behaved with me in an emphatically polite manner and did not show his superiority.

Maria: Was a true diplomat...

Irina: Yes.

Maria: ...and a representative of the Medici banking house. The Medici family was a very influential Italian family.

Irina: He shows me this comparison: Amerigo was an aristocrat, and Christopher was a simple guy.

Maria: A commoner.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And it's not even about appearance. I was used to speaking directly, even to kings and cardinals (there was no difference for me who was in front of me). That is, I did not hide my position. And if I didn't like something, I would say: "You are deceiving me. I will sue you."

Maria: Yes, you had many lawsuits. We'll get to them.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): That is, I directly said: "I will sue you. You will pay for this. You have no right." I did not tolerate injustice.

Maria: Yes.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And Amerigo was such that, even if he was short-changed and treated unfairly, he pretended not to notice anything. But at the same time, he wove intrigues. That is, if he didn't manage to earn here, he would just take it somewhere else, but he wouldn't say a rude word.

Maria: A true Florentine.

43:21 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the discovery of the real India.

Maria: We also have information that towards the end of the third expedition in 1499, the Spanish royal treasury was still not receiving income from its new colony. At the same time, the Portuguese Vasco da Gama discovered the sea route to the real India. And in 1498, he returned with a cargo of spices, thus proving that the lands you discovered were not India at all, and that you yourself, therefore, were a liar.

Consequently, the royal couple sent their governor to the island of Hispaniola, who brought you and your brothers back to Spain in chains. And although your financiers managed to convince the monarchs to release you, nevertheless, your privileges were not restored. What motivated your release? What did you feel when you heard this news? How did it affect your self-esteem?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): You see, when I heard that this was not the land I thought it was (shows), I was not disappointed. On the contrary, I became even more interested because it was something entirely new, not even known about before. And I thought: "So what was it that I had?..." So I had a hanging question.

Maria: More curiosity, yes?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): If it's not India, not Japan, not China, i.e., not Asian lands, and at the same time it's not Indians, with the many different tribes I dealt with, then I thought: "So what is it then? It can't be Africa. So what other land could it be? That means it's something completely new."

I assumed: "That means I am the discoverer of a land that no one before me knew at all." And I also wondered: "How is that even possible? Why didn't anyone sail there before?" (shows that there was no disappointment, but surprise and even some joy that it was a New Land).

45:41 Unjust accusations and persecution of Christopher Columbus.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And as for the accusations you listed, as well as my arrest, in my opinion, they were groundless. I think it was all rigged by competitors who also wanted influence in these colonies.

You judge for yourself: by arresting me, they didn't remove the colony from the land I discovered. On the contrary, ships continued to sail there. After all, not only me and my friends were already sailing there – there were already colonists living there (shows) some priests, and construction of a fort and a church beside it had already begun. So construction was already starting.

And they said that I didn't discover the right thing, so I was a liar and a fraud. But they didn't stop using it. And I believe it was all unfairly rigged. Because there was no difference what this land was called, as long as it brought income. And there was gold, precious stones, and 'servants', as we called them...

Maria: ...Slaves.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): ...They were taken to European countries, and they worked there. And there was a lot of gold (shows how various gold objects were exchanged).

Maria: ...For glass beads?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And if they didn't want to exchange, then a conflict would start, which could end in the capture of that tribe.

And in general, there was a lot of land where people could live, moving there from Europe permanently.

And I think there is no difference what this land was called. And if I discovered it, then I am no fraud. This land really existed. And it could be called 'Asia', 'India-2', 'Japan', 'Moponia'. Whatever you wanted to call it. The name doesn't matter.

Maria: The thing is, your ill-wishers claimed specifically that you managed these colonies poorly and dishonestly. Therefore, the royal couple revoked this monopoly right.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, that was true, yes. I had a lot of things there, of course. But specifically regarding fraud – I disagree here.

Maria: That was one of the arguments why your monopoly was taken away.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Regarding management – yes, I agree. In managing my own crew, ships, and colonies, I indeed showed a lot of force, which was perceived as cruelty. I punished.

I established my own laws and punished disobedience. For example, for killing or wounding one of my men, I ordered five people to be tied to stakes (shows how people were tied to stakes with their hands raised, tied with some twine, straw was piled up, and they were burned alive).

Maria: Was this the local population or someone from another crew?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): The local population.

Maria: The local population...

50:00 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about an unsavoury business.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Moreover, princes, barons, and even cardinals approached me and asked me to sell them girls. You understand?

Maria: You mean local women?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): They ran, as you now call them, houses where for money...

Maria: Yes, brothels.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And their owners were sometimes very high-ranking aristocrats.

Maria: Yes, and clergy too.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, they could also be owners of brothels, of course, to make a profit from them. And girls had to come from somewhere. And accordingly, to set a proper price for a girl, she had to be attractive. And those girls from these tribes were something new.

You see, even back then, there were people willing to pay, so to speak, for children. And I specifically selected girls about 9–10 years old, who were taken to these houses. If their mothers and fathers tried to resist, I would set dogs on them (shows that he drowned them somewhere).

Maria: Yes, you were a very cruel man.

Irina: How do you like that story?

Maria: You know, I suspected something like that. Reading even very abstract, non-detailed descriptions of your behaviour and treatment of the local population, it was clear what you came for. With the help of armed soldiers and specially trained hunting dogs, you eliminated the local population, suppressing rebellious tribes. Naturally...

52:14 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the 'exclusivity' of Catholic Christians.

Irina: He's showing me how he considered this not even a sin, but a virtue, something self-evident.

Maria: Yes, we know that in your time, even in Christianity, there was a special idea of what constitutes a virtue.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): No, virtue... You see, I repeat, these people lived on the land we discovered. And we understood that the whole world belongs to us, Catholic Christians. And if it so happens that some people live on this land who do not belong to our, so to speak, world – naturally, we offered them: "Either you submit to us, or you die." That is, it was clear to everyone, and it wasn't even necessary to say it in words. It was an unwritten law.

And it's clear that on the other side of this world, reactions could be different. There were those who saw our superiority and voluntarily came over to our world, became Christians, and even tried to rise in our hierarchy. They got used to our world, learned the language. But Europeans treated them with disgust. For them, they were savages.

Maria: Yes, second-class people.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. And that was quite natural.

As for cruelty, I want to say that if they do not submit to our divine authority... And we are governed by the Pope, the vicar of Christ. We all walk under his blessing. God blessed him, and that's serious. God governs us through the Pope. If some people do not submit to us, then they have no right to live on earth, because they are already opposing God. You see the point?

Maria: Yes, I see the point.

Irina: How do you like that?

Maria: I understand his point of view and worldview. It is familiar to us even today. Not much has changed since those times.

Irina: Not much?

Maria: No, not much. It has changed, but not much.

54:59 Resourcefulness of Christopher Columbus and vicissitudes of his fate.

Maria: According to the information that has come down to us, you were a very resourceful and enterprising person with a good imagination. So, at the end of your second expedition, on June 11, 1496, you returned to Spain to defend the rights previously granted to you. You presented a document according to which you had indeed reached the Asian continent. Although in reality it was the island of Cuba.

And you asked your crew to swear that it was the Asian continent. You declared that in the center of the island of Hispaniola, you discovered the wonderful land of Ophir, where gold was once mined for the biblical King Solomon. Furthermore, you proposed sending not free settlers to the new lands, but criminals, reducing their sentence by half.

The latter proposal, of course, found a great response among the ruling elite. Because, on the one hand, it freed Spain from undesirable elements, reducing the cost of keeping them in prisons, and on the other hand, it provided the exploration of new territories with sufficiently desperate human material.

The next interesting case was during your fourth expedition in 1504. You used a lunar eclipse to intimidate hostile Jamaican Indians. You promised that you would pray for their salvation, and it would be granted if they resumed supplying you with food and everything necessary.

Were there any other interesting stories or tricks you had to use in your life to achieve your goals? And what other interesting and remarkable things happened during your expeditions and in the intervals between them?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Many things happened: all sorts of scary cases, especially for your consciousness, and funny cases, and kind, and bright ones. I can remember a lot.

And indeed, every day could be our last. It wasn't just people who threatened us; there were also dangerous natural phenomena: storms, lightning strikes. We could get lost at sea, that is, go off course, because the wind might not blow where we needed. There were times when you sail and sail, thinking that land must be just about there, but you missed slightly, and the ship's food is already running out.

Well, we had fishing... (shows how fishermen catch fish). That's not scary if food runs out. There's always food in the sea. We had nets (shows how they could catch fish). But what's much scarier is when the water runs out, and there is no rain or nothing to collect it in. When there was rain...

(Irina): Shows how they spread out some material that didn't absorb water, where water collected...

Maria: Tarpaulins.

Irina: ...and it flowed into long clay containers like our refrigerator drip trays. (laughs)

(as Christopher Columbus): If there was no rain, and the water ran out – that was scary. And if someone couldn't stand it and started drinking sea water, after a few days they would start screaming terribly, body pains would begin (shows), and their heart would stop. That is, the salt in the sea killed people.

There were cases when a person, out of despair and thirst, would rush to drink (shows how others pulled him away – even among his crew there were such cases). And I ordered such people to be tied up, locked away, so they wouldn't do it. I heard curses directed at me. Yes, that happened too. Various cases happened.

1:00:08 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about life in Indian tribes.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Some tribes greeted us peacefully enough. I talked with their sorcerers, shamans. They treated me to various dishes, let me inhale the smoke of some plants that made me dizzy and made it hard to speak.

Maria: But that wasn't tobacco, but some narcotic plants?

Irina: He shows me how they sit...

(as Christopher Columbus): And for a person not used to it...

(Irina): He's showing me a plant. It looks like tobacco. At least, I see it's tall.

(as Christopher Columbus): The thing is, the leaves of such a plant, like tobacco, affect an unprepared person quite differently than modern cigarettes. It's not some chemical like flavourings, but a plant containing a certain dose of nicotine, etc. (shows how they sit around a fire and pass a pipe to each other, and then, after a couple of rounds, they start talking about governing the tribe).

This was their custom. It was believed that the smoke of this plant attracted the gods, and they gave them advice on how to run the tribe. For me, of course, it was a marvel. And I even asked them to take some seeds with me. There were such tribes.

And there were tribes where we would stay (shows how we would even stay overnight without any fear). And we weren't afraid of a knife in the back or poison in the plate. That is, there were even tribes that greeted us with great kindness.

I remember, the chief of one tribe got to know me, left me to sleep in his tent. And the part of the tent where I lay was curtained off with some rag. And when I had almost fallen asleep, he came to me and brought a little girl with him, probably about seven – his daughter. As a man... I said: "What are you doing? I'm not a wild beast." And he replied: "You are a man sent by the gods. And if you do this now, then later, when she grows up and conceives by another – the son will be considered yours." Because they believed that the first man is the true father.

(Irina): He's showing me now... (laughs)

Maria: So it can be assumed that in this way, you became a father 11 times not only in Europe but also in America?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Of course. There were also girls there whom I and my crew, so to speak, looked at. And not only looked but also had relationships (shows that there were relationships there too).

Maria: Yes, I understand. Very difficult for a man who has been at sea for a long time without female attention...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Especially when I come out and see women lying on the sand, you know, completely naked.

Maria: Yes.

Irina: He's showing me now some dark-skinned...

Maria: Indians.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. And men, women, and children undressed in front of each other and lie sunbathing. One is just lying there (shows how his gaze immediately concentrated on her chest as a man)...

(Irina): Well, it's just funny now. (laughs)

Maria: It was unusual for them.

Irina: And he stands there in shock.

Maria: Yes, many tribes went naked, as far as we know.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Now imagine what the sailors wanted to do with them?

Maria: Of course, it was a very difficult test for sailors.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Especially after a multi-month voyage.

Maria: Yes, it was very hard to resist.

Irina: They didn't care what faith they were anymore, did they?

Maria: Yes, what appearance or faith.

Tell me, please, did the story with the lunar eclipse actually happen? Because it's only known from the words of one of your companions.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, there were such stories, and more than once. I would tell them (shows): "If you obey me, if you are submissive to me, then some good will happen to you..." For example: "Thunder will not kill you," or: "The moon will not affect you," – depending on what they believed, because (shows how, not understanding each other's languages, they had to communicate with signs)...

But gradually we began to learn their language. We would point to objects and ask: "What do you call this?" Such an exchange of words took place. But this, I repeat, was with those who did not resist. And when they resisted us, when there were clashes, attacks, then, of course, there was no time for talking.

Maria: Yes, I understand.

1:06:47 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the 'Book of Privileges' and the 'Columbus lawsuits'.

Maria: You are also the author of two interesting books: 'The Book of Privileges' and 'The Book of Prophecies'. 'The Book of Privileges' was written in Seville in 1502, shortly before your fourth and final voyage to America.

You wrote it to put on paper (with the help of judges and notaries, as we know) in detail those manifestations of favour from the Spanish crown which, in your opinion, were due to you as a reward for discovering the route to the East Indies, as well as for conquering and Christianizing new lands for the glory of Spain.

The publication of this book was followed by a lengthy legal process between your family and the Spanish crown, known as the 'Columbus lawsuits'. How did this situation affect the development of your Spirit? What did you understand from this story after returning to the Spiritual World? As far as I understand, you had deep resentment and disappointment.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I understood... Yes, there was resentment, disappointment in these people who were in power, in their honesty. Because they said one thing and did another – there was deception. When the deception continued, I felt nauseated from this deception. And I became physically ill (shows how there was nausea, high blood pressure, kidney pain).

Maria: Kidney failure or kidney stones?

Irina: Yes, he's showing me now that he had toxins in his blood.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): That is, this anger, not even anger, but suppressed rage, I couldn't vent. These were no longer Indians. I could only take it out on someone. For example, I had a dog and a horse (shows), and when I came from another hearing or interrogation, and they caught my eye and tried to come to me so I would pet them – I would start beating them (shows), I would take it out on them.

Maria: You showed your aggression?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. That's why I got sick. And unfortunately, my Spiritual level upon leaving incarnation was the 5th.

Maria: Yes, I thought so, that after going through such a difficult path, full of aggression, disappointment...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Although, let me remind you, I incarnated from the 15th.

Maria: Yes.

1:10:19 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the 'Book of Prophecies'.

Maria: You had another remarkable book – 'The Book of Prophecies', which you started writing while awaiting your fourth trip to America between 1502 and 1504, and finished after completing this expedition. You were helped to write it by a Carthusian monk from the Monastery of Santa Maria in Seville, Gaspar de Gorricio.

In this book, you justify your divine destiny to discover the route, as you thought, to the East Indies, for which you found confirmation in the Bible. And you declared that the ultimate goal of your voyages was the evangelization of the Indians and the extraction of gold for the restoration of Jerusalem.

You wrote in this book that for the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus Christ, four conditions must be met. First – spread Christianity throughout the world. Second – find Eden, which in the view of your contemporaries was supposed to be somewhere on a mountain top, so that it would not be affected by the floodwaters. Third – a final crusade must be undertaken, which would lead to the recapture of the holy land from the Muslims, after which Christ must come to the place where he preached, was crucified, and resurrected – to Jerusalem. And the fourth condition – a final world ruler must be chosen, which, in your opinion, were to be the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella.

What actually led you to write this book? Was it truly a desire of your Spirit, or was it some kind of contactee work? Who helped you with this on the subtle plane? Or was it just a diplomatic move to convince the monarchs to continue financing your expeditions and recognize your privileges? And how successful were you in this?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I said this: these were my reflections on everything that is there. These were my quite sincere reflections.

And regarding contact... I attracted different entities with my vibrations, not very bright ones, let's say. And some ideas were planted by them. For example, regarding the inferiority of the natives. That idea exists. There is a biblical justification I gave that they are not equal to us. All this was suggested to intensify hostility.

Actually, I regret this now. But in subsequent incarnations (shows), when I had already left incarnation and merged with the Higher Self, I had other experiences, other incarnations, where I was able to atone for this karma, cleanse it, and rise higher.

Maria: Yes, we...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Actually, I am very sorry that I caused so much suffering to people. And even after the death of my body, others continued this work. Others continued my work in the same vein and direction. And even towards the end of my life, I already regretted it.

But I could not process this anger, resentment. And there was also guilt. And all this together brought me down to the 5th level. Although I prayed to Jesus. I thought he was for me, on my side. And I want to say that when I left incarnation, I was very, very surprised by who surrounded me and who met me.

Maria: I will definitely ask you about that.

1:14:51 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the predestination of fate.

Maria: I am interested in learning about your belief that the fate of humanity is predestined (as stated in the Holy Scriptures), and that your fate was predestined by God before your birth. Perhaps you were something of a fatalist.

And of course, we know that you had a very strong influence on the fate of our civilization thanks to the discovery of the new continent and what happened there. As you correctly said, your descendants and subsequent generations continued truly terrible acts of colonization there. What influenced your belief that the entire history of humanity is somehow predicted in the Holy Scriptures or predestined by God?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): These were also reflections. Because I understood that God knows everything, He is omniscient. And if He knows the future, for me that meant 'He predestined it Himself.' Because if He knew but did not interfere, then He predestined it. That was my understanding.

Maria: So you thought that all the cruelty that manifested in society, including in the new lands, manifested with the approval of the Higher Powers and God?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, of course. Not a hair falls from the head without God's will, including those people's. Since it fell, then God commanded it that way. We are the hand of God. He uses us to punish them for their depraved pagan life.

Maria: Yes, we know that this was basically the ideology of the crusades against Muslims and others…

Irina: In short, I understood: whoever wins – he is the saint. Yes, that's it.

Maria: So that was the conviction of his entire life. And in his last years...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): For example, when some tribes or states are at war, whoever God gives victory... He does give it, right? In any nation, there is a day of victory over some enemies. So, when this day of victory is remembered and celebrated in any nation, they certainly remember God and say: "You gave us victory." Don't they?

Maria: You know, now we live in atheistic times when people don't really believe in God, but...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I mean people. You do have believers, don't you? And when they remember that in the history of their people, whatever their nationality, there was a victory over another, enemy people, they certainly thank God for giving victory to them, that is, to their ancestors. Don't they?

Maria: This is a philosophical topic, who...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And here's the thing: if they had been subjugated, defeated, another people would have defeated them and taken them into slavery or taken their territory, or both... There are simply different forms of capture. There is capture of only territory, annexing it to one's own and declaring that it should be so. That's correct.

And there is capture of territory along with taking people into slavery. That is, taking them elsewhere... Slavery can be open, or it can be hidden. It takes different forms.

But in any case, if this people, who are now celebrating victory, had lost that war (any war), then their enemy would be celebrating victory over them and would also thank God for giving them victory. Right?

Maria: Yes, every nation celebrates its victory.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, then. And no one celebrates defeat in a war, do they?

Maria: Yes, that's true.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): They don't thank God for defeat in war. And you know, probably, about ancient peoples who had gods of war to whom they addressed various prayers for victory over their enemies. And still, only one – the strongest – won. Why do you think? You do understand who can win a war? Now the question: is victory in war accidental?

Maria: Of course not.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): To whom do the Divine Higher Powers give victory?

Maria: To those who are supposed to teach a lesson and learn it themselves.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And why did they get victory, and the others defeat? (Irina): He shows how some are given victory – others defeat, some capture – others are enslaved. This is what he considered predestination.

Maria: And an indicator that everything is happening correctly?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): You see, even if a child was born, for example, on this island where I sailed, 30 years before my appearance on this island... He was born, grew up all those 30 years, and had no idea that some Christopher Columbus existed. And he didn't know that one day, not a good one for him, a ship would arrive, enslave him and his family. He grew up, enjoyed life, and loved his mother like everyone else. But in fact, his fate was already written. But if it hadn't been written, how would it have come true? What do you think?

Maria: Yes, we now understand thanks to our spiritual knowledge that the future is multi-variant. And there are various options for how...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): There can be many options. We are looking at what happened.

Maria: Naturally. And each Spirit knew all these options before incarnating (what could happen to it).

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): So, then you were right: the Spirit knew that it would be enslaved. It incarnated, so that was its fate, wasn't it?

Maria: Yes. A very harsh, but reality.

Irina: An interesting argument, isn't it?

Maria: Yes, a very harsh reality. And indeed the reality on our planet... In fact, you did not behave atypically for our civilization in general, including for your time.

Irina: He would fit in even in our time, I think.

Maria: Yes, he is no different in his way of thinking from our time. Although we now live in more atheistic times, and I think not very many people seriously believe in God, but they obviously believe in fate and that 'whoever wins is right'.

1:24:00 Last years of life and death of Christopher Columbus.

Maria: In conclusion, I have another question about the last years of your life, during which you were quite ill. You were taken back to Seville. You were unable to get your granted rights and privileges restored, and you spent all your money on your travel companions.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And also on my treatment.

Maria: On your treatment, yes. And on May 20, 1506, you spoke your last words: 'Into your hands, Lord, I commend my spirit,' and died that same day at the age of 55. And you were buried in Seville. What was the cause of your death?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): That anger, hatred, condemnation (which I already mentioned), directed not even against the Indians, but against the authorities who had acted wrongly.

Of course, I understood that if someone's fate is to be slaves, then my fate is likewise written by God. I understood this with my mind. But my heart did not submit.

Maria: Yes, you fought. You had many lawsuits.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): You realize, when your mind understands one thing, but your heart says another?

Maria: Naturally. You were not a timid person who submits. You always tried to achieve your goal.

Irina: So I see, despite fatalism, he did not give up.

Maria: Yes, he fought, and his descendants – sons and grandsons – too.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I said that this illness led to my destruction. And there were also diseases contracted from contacts with women.

Irina: All this undermined his health. Plus negative blocks, to use modern language for what was happening to him. And all this together so destroyed his body that the body could no longer function, and his heart stopped.

Maria: And what lifespan did your Spirit plan?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): A little over 66 years (between 66 and 67).

Maria: So you planned to live 11 years longer.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, I left incarnation 11 years early.

Maria: Yes.

1:26:52 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about Europe's enrichment at the expense of new lands.

Maria: According to our sources, your contemporaries barely noticed your death. Recognition came only later, by the mid-16th century, after the conquest of Mexico, Peru, and the states in the northern Andes. Then truly huge reserves of gold, silver, pearls, and precious stones began to flow to Europe. And of course, the subsequent tragic fate of the peoples...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And how many young men did I transport in the hold of my ship to the Spanish king for his mines, so he could make weapons, has he forgotten?

Maria: According to our sources, 200. But obviously, many more.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): More, of course. There were 860 (shows the number).

Maria: Yes, more than four times as many.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. And even then I transported them in larger numbers, but not all, truth be told, arrived alive. Some would start a mutiny on the ship or start fighting over the food they were given (shows how they were given some flatbreads, fish, water while they were being transported). They wanted to drink and said: 'Water, water.' And we conserved water. And when they started making too much noise, I said: 'How long can this go on? I have no strength left.'

(Irina): He shows how young men 20–25 years old (in their prime) sat in the hold with their hands tied and could only eat like this (brings his hands, joined palms, to his face). He ordered them to be brought out: 'How long can you scream? Bring them out.'

(as Christopher Columbus): They were brought out, and 10 people were chosen arbitrarily, I approached them, they were turned around with their backs to me, I tore their shirts, took a knife, and with the knife made notches on their backs. And when blood flowed, I ordered them to be thrown into the ocean. Sharks would swim up to the blood and, in front of everyone, would rip them apart. Then the screams would stop for a while. 'Do you want the same?' I would ask. No one wanted to.

(Irina): How do you like that story?

Maria: Yes, very cruel times, cruel treatment.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): And then those sharks would follow the ship for a long time.

Maria: Well, naturally. They waited for further feeding. So you exported people, precious metals, other...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Stones too.

Maria: Yes, precious stones. And you imported...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Some herbs (shows), seeds, also books.

(Irina): They wrote on something like papyrus, rolled into scrolls. But there were incomprehensible symbols. They didn't look like runes, but not letters either...

Maria: So they had their own writing.

Irina: ...Some rounded icons (draws signs in the air resembling the letter 'yu', the number '6', etc.). And it doesn't look like Egyptian symbols. I don't even know what it looks like, but he's showing me now.

Maria: So you exported cultural items and artifacts, obviously?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, also various figurines.

1:31:15 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about alien artifacts.

Maria: Did you ever encounter artifacts that showed, for example, aliens from other planets, from other civilizations? Did they tell you about contacts?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, I heard about it. Some priests showed me something (shows that on a large island there were mountainous areas and caves). In these caves, objects received from the gods were kept, as they told us. But it was something incomprehensible to me (shows some disc made of light grey metal).

(Irina): I don't know what it's called.

(as Christopher Columbus): You had to say a certain phrase and throw the disc into the water, and all the water around would foam, and fish would float up.

Maria: Was it poisonous?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): It was some kind of radiation like electricity for catching fish.

Maria: I see.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): There were also various plates (shows thin plates of shiny silvery metal). They would put them on sore spots (and the pain would stop) or directly on a wound (and it would heal quickly, the blood would stop flowing). So they used these plates to heal.

Maria: Were these artifacts taken to Europe?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Of course, yes. Everything was taken away.

Maria: Are they now probably in the hidden storerooms of the Vatican?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I don't know where they ended up.

Maria: You learned a lot of interesting things from these travels: both in terms of learning about new cultures...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): When I was on this large island, Cuba, I remember going out onto the ocean shore in the evening and seeing a strange object in the sky. At first I thought it was a bird, but it was a metal object of elongated shape, like a cigar. At first it was small, then quite large (maybe a little smaller than my ship).

I watched it and saw that it flew away into the mountains and then somehow disappeared downwards, as if it flew into a cave, it seemed to me. I went to the Indians and started asking them what it was. They looked at me and said: 'It's just gods. They live here. They've been flying here for a long time.'

Maria: Did the Indians tell you about contacts with the gods?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, they told me a lot. There was plenty of that. True, not everyone believed it (shows how they laughed). But they talked about contacts, that the gods visited their tribe, healed their diseases, even took their women to themselves to supposedly father children – in short, many different tall tales.

Maria: So these stories didn't fit into your worldview?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): No.

Maria: Yes, you had a very interesting and eventful life. I think you are one of the few people on our planet who had such a fate and such an opportunity – to be a discoverer of new continents, new lands, new peoples. You brought to Europe many new plants that are still used...

Irina: He's showing me some seeds in little bags.

Maria: How did you like potatoes? And tomatoes...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): It was unusual (I just showed him an image of these vegetables). And I wanted others to try them.

Maria: Well, now the whole planet eats this product. Actually, it's a very important product for the survival of many peoples.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): They, by the way, said that... I also asked what it was. We didn't have anything like that. They, by the way, when we had learned a little of each other's languages (they knew my words, I knew theirs), also questioned me, where I was from, where I lived. So they were also interested in where we sailed from. And I told them that there are countries with big cities. I wanted to show them the continent I sailed from in a positive light.

And when they showed me these plants and gave me some to eat, I was surprised. And they asked: 'What, you don't have that?' I said: 'We don't have that.' And they said: 'Well, you don't, so you don't.' And I said: 'Interesting, why not?' And then they would all start saying that these seeds were given to them by the gods. Only to them, not to the Europeans. What a wonder, why did God give...

1:37:38 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about a discussion with Indians about God and gods.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I told them that there is only one God – Christ, and they need to read the Bible, learning the language (shows).

They listened attentively and said: 'Christ is one of the gods.' And I said: 'No, there is only one.' But they replied: 'How can one god manage everything, from controlling the forces of nature to controlling the stars? One god wouldn't have enough intelligence or attention to manage everything. So every tree, every star, the sun, the river has its own gods.' I already said: 'With you, if you pick up a stone from the road, you'll say it has a god and start beating your forehead on it.' Such a superstitious people.

Maria: They communicated with plasmoids, obviously. And for them, plasmoids, the creators of matter, were gods.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): That's what they said, that the gods brought them. They told many times how another group of gods descended from the sky in a large sparkling boat, from which light shone for 100 steps. And everyone was amazed: 'Oh! 100 steps!' (laughs)

Maria: Yes, obviously, these are our friends from Picran or other planets of the Interstellar Union.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): So for them... (shows how his sailors sit) One of those Indians, who already understood our language, would start telling: 'Gods came to us from the sky, landed their boat right on this spot.' They'd ask him: 'And did you see it yourself?' And he: 'No, but I was still little then, – he'd say things like that. – My grandfather told me they used to come here often. And I saw it once from afar when I was little. The adults told me not to go close, otherwise they'd take me away in that boat to the sky, and I'd never see them again.' So they scared him.

Maria: Tell me, please, didn't the artifacts themselves make you think or convince you, for example, the metal ones...

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): I thought that they made it all themselves, I just didn't understand the secret.

Maria: I see. Like our contemporaries, who also don't want to believe in the existence of aliens.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Well, they didn't call them aliens – just 'gods'. And they didn't say they were from other planets. They just said that the gods flew from the sky, and that they are above us (not in height, but in hierarchy). That is, if a god arrived, then everything was brought to him: gifts and sacrifices. They had religious reverence for them, as gods, not as aliens from another planet.

And the Indian continued: 'I peeked out from behind a tree and saw a shining boat standing in this clearing. It was white.' Why a boat? Because it was elongated in shape. 'It was already dark, and the light from it spread for 100 steps, although there were no torches, no lanterns, no candles, this light spread through the air by itself. And when the gods came out, looking like us, but only lighter and taller, we understood that they were incorporeal beings who just took a form understandable to us.'

So that was their idea.

1:42:10 Spirit of Christopher Columbus about the transition to the Spiritual World.

Maria: The next question is about what realizations you had after leaving incarnation and after discussing it with your Angel consultants and Guardian Angels. What did you realize?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): The realizations were that I had accumulated a lot of cruelty, heartlessness, indifference, and selfishness, that is, negative qualities. And then, when I connected with my unincarnated part – the Higher Self, and began to think about what to do, how to get out of the 5th level... There were many there like me (shows very angry, aggressive Spirits who take different forms and attack each other).

Maria: Yes, you mentioned that you were very surprised, when you came out into the Spiritual World, by who surrounded you.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes, I was surrounded by seven Spirits who took the form of animals with black fur and hooves. And a little further away stood two light people with wings. And when I came out, these two Angels with wings approached me, reached out their hands, and those started jumping around and saying: 'Soon you will come to us.' I realized they were unclean spirits, didn't believe them, and said: 'I belong only to Christ,' but it turned out I did not.

1:43:54 Wishes of the Spirit of Christopher Columbus to people. Conclusion.

Maria: In conclusion of our meeting, we want to thank you for all the information you told us, for your openness, for your directness, and ask what you would like to wish for us and for your incarnated part in the current incarnation.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): You see, I am separated from my Higher Self, one might say that I am now part of the memory of my unincarnated essence.

Maria: I understand. But as a personality, do you have some realizations?

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): As the personality of Christopher Columbus, I have advice. It's funny: it turns out I'm advising my future self.

Maria: Yes. And us as well.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Interesting and even funny. I want to address you, my incarnation (he laughs). I know that now you are smart, kind, wise, and very compassionate. Yes, I was not like that. But I want to wish you to always be as you are, and to fulfill the task of incarnation better than I did, for our common Higher Self, for our common Soul. In short, we are different people, but we are one.

And to all people, I would like to wish to look at the world not through the mind, which can be mistaken, but through the heart, which always tells the truth...

Maria: Thank you.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): … If, of course, a person often tells the truth, if the 'compass' in the heart is correctly aligned (it can also be disturbed) – that is Faith, Hope, and Love, the most holy, the most valuable in life.

Maria: Thank you for these wonderful wishes!

You know, thanks to you, I also came to very important realizations for me personally. When I was preparing for this conference, I turned to Jesus. I had certain thoughts about those Spirits who lowered their spiritual level. Because when I learned about your life, I already understood that you, obviously, left this incarnation at a not high enough level.

And I received this understanding from Jesus: it doesn't matter how low a level we fall after an incarnation – what's important is to apply our divine consciousness, use this experience for our own more powerful, stronger subsequent growth, and use this knowledge to help ourselves and others. Because, having been at that level, you know how other Spirits feel, what happens to them. And there are many such Spirits in our civilization, unfortunately.

Irina (as Christopher Columbus): Yes. Thank you for the message. We are all spiritual brothers and sisters and, despite our delusions, we continue to walk towards the Light, even in the form that seems like darkness to us.

Therefore, I thank you, Maria, for the interesting questions. I thank Irina for transmitting the images and my thoughts in the form of words. I want to say that she translated my inner content, my thoughts very well and attentively, and was attentive in this contact, missing nothing.

Irina: Yes, thank you. I also thank Christopher now, I thank Maria. I send you the Light of my Love. To Christopher (his Higher Self and his incarnated part), I wish to fulfill the task of incarnation and raise his level. Thank you for the existence in incarnation of such a wise Soul. I also thank Maria for the interesting questions.

And I thank you, dear viewers, for watching this video to the end. I hope you found his answers interesting. Hopefully, they taught you to appreciate life and the time in which we live (and we now live in a somewhat different time).

Maria: Yes, human life is now valued much more.

Irina: So, dear friends, until next time!

Maria: Thank you. Until next time.

April 16, 2024

Conference participants:

• Irina Podzorova – contactee with extraterrestrial civilizations, subtle-material civilizations, and the Spiritual World

• Maria Sokalskaya – co-founder of the Cassiopeia Project, head of the SAKRAL online school, administrator and moderator of social networks and video conferences

• Spirit of Christopher Columbus – navigator, discoverer, cosmographer